How about getting this community at least a bit more international friendly?

  • I hope I won't get banned or hated for stating my opinion but:

    I know it may sound like complaining but this is how I and at least several people feel about LOTUS community. It's extremely hard to find any information on this forum as still to this date basically anything outside of official announcements is only in German and this pushes content creators of this community to be lazy on this regard also:
    - A lot of Steam workshop mods, support threads and showroom (not WIP) threads still to this date only have German description, instructions etc
    - Variable selections are usually only in german for modded content in the game

    I get it, we will never get to the point where discussions here would happen in English, so everybody around the world would understand them and could take part of them also, sadly that is impossible to ask. Just a small hint, this is what discourages a lot of people to take part of discussions here, they just can't understand most of the discussions and frankly we won't google translate all of them, just maybe you would start getting a more feedback outside of german speaking playerbase if you would think about this?

    But to not only complain and get things at least a bit better, I know this word here is a taboo, but omsi-webdisk resently understood this issue and the solution they implemented is perfect start - They introduced a rule that released content (mods on filebase) should by minimum have English description. Maybe introduce a similar rule here that all content that is released: Steam Workshop and released showroom - must have English descriptions and ingame English translations for what it add (like equipment variables etc), so that every one can actually understand these?

    PS: I'm not throwing a phrase "a lot of" around just for fun, I'm talking about what I've seen over time on our virtual bus/trucking company's Discord (with about 200 members, quarter of them active) and from what I've heard from communities outside of this mostly german based community here.

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    Edited once, last by GameBurrow ().

  • Hey,


    at least I can tell you that inside LOTUS (nearly?) all requirements for multiple languages have been made or are about to be made. E.g. recently the vehicle configuration (variables, constants,...) was moved to Language files instead of direct names. Hence everybody should be able to provide at least an English translation of such content. Descriptions, like for maps and vehicles, are Language file based for a long time.


    I fall into line with you when it comes to Workshop descriptions, manuals and announcements of addons. There is definitely room for improvement. I will do my part in encouraging people by adjustment of the German forum template, which will include an English part for the future. We will not start moderating workshop descriptions for this premise, but we can raise awareness, at least.


    Thanks for the input.


    ---


    :flag_ger: So Ihr Lieben, Ihr habt den Mann gehört (gelesen). Wer sich angesprochen fühlt, kann wichtige Texte (Präsentationsthreads, Workshop-Beschreibungen, Readmes) übersetzen. Wer dies tut, erhält die einzigartige Trophäe "Weltenbummler" :attention:.

  • Hm. I tried it now with some of my presentation threads. I have to be honest, it does not feel that right in my opinion. Steam allows me to have seperated, dedicated descriptions for every language, my items currently all have a german and an englich one. If your Steam language is is german you will see the german ones, otherwise the english versions are displayed. That is nice and clean. Here I have to try to combine both descriptions into one, that makes it a little messy and hard to read, I think.


    Would it not be sufficient to have the steam workshop article in both languages? Especially as the information there are the same as in the forum threads. And I still have to mark the whole topic here as completely "german" or "english", that confuses me even more. If non-german users did not tick the right boxes in their forum settings, they won't even be able to see these topics at all, even though I translatet them, will they?

  • Also in der Vorlage habe ich den Englischen Part - ohne Bilder - einfach unten dran gehängt.


    If non-german users did not tick the right boxes in their forum settings, they won't even be able to see these topics at all, even though I translatet them, will they?

    Achso und hierzu noch - englische Nutzer bekommen einen Hinweis, wenn sie den Haken für deutschen Content nicht drin haben. Das ist eine Schwäche von Woltlab, aber ich glaube, wir kommen recht gut damit zurecht.

  • Would it not be sufficient to have the steam workshop article in both languages? Especially as the information there are the same as in the forum threads.

    You guys keep forgetting, this forum here is official forum for the game, that is internationally released not only for the German community. I would say if we have to choose only one language here to mainly use, it should be English, which is considered international language, which everybody understands, not language that only the developers and small part of the world talk (yes arquably it's quite wide used language but still only small percentage of the world compared to eEnglish).


    And I still have to mark the whole topic here as completely "german" or "english", that confuses me even more. If non-german users did not tick the right boxes in their forum settings, they won't even be able to see these topics at all, even though I translatet them, will they?

    Yes, if we tick only English, we won't see untranslated posts at all.

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  • not language that only the developers and small part of the world talk.

    Small part of the world and about 80% of LOTUS users. ;)


    But I think we will find a way that satisfies most of us all.

  • Small part of the world and about 80% of LOTUS users. ;)

    Well if the main communication hub of the game is mostly in German, of course you would have mostly german players (at least the ones lurking around here) ;) OMSI was plagued by the same issue and that's why still to this date most of OMSI mods are about german in official sources (as most mods are made by German content creators or authors who understand German).

    I mean look at SCS, even though they are Czech company, all of their hubs are in English and see how big their community is? Even though it's also quite niche community. Look at TML, even though they sometimes tend to forget this also, at least their forum is mostly in English.

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    Edited once, last by GameBurrow ().

  • Yes, if we tick only English, we won't see untranslated posts at all.

    My point is, that if you ticked only English, you would not even see translated posts as I still have to mark them as "german only". I could easily mark them as english only, but then german Readers who did not tick the English-box would not see them despite them still also having the german description in it.


    Janine If you really want to make this forum multinational I indeed think that this is a problem. Completely abandoning this technique is not an option? Would it then be possible to mark posts as multilangual?

  • Janine If you really want to make this forum multinational I indeed think that this is a problem. Completely abandoning this technique is not an option? Would it then be possible to mark posts as multilangual?

    Afaik no.

  • ...by maybe introducing a third "language" we could misuse as multilangual, and which would be activated for both user groups by default?

    Was thinking something similar. Not sure how open woltab, is but maybe it's possible fake a language as multilanguage (in the language file) that would be forcefully enabled for all users.

    Or maybe actually get in contact to whoever makes this (is it core functinality or plugin, haven't touched woltlab before) and request a feature like this?

    Or get rid of it completely and do things like any other developer does, use English for main stuff, maximum have a small section for german speaking and even perhaps other language communities where people can help those out who struggle with English etc? :P

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    Edited 3 times, last by GameBurrow ().

  • I think you're raising an important issue.

    However, it is important to note that many people that are actively participating in this community in German only, are able to understand (especially written) English quite well, but may be too afraid to post in English because they think their English might be too bad or embarrassing.


    Maybe we could open a translation-hub in the Forum, where users willing to translate (into either German or English) or proofread and users who need translation can coordinate. On reddit's r/translator I've experienced that this can indeed work quite well. Another idea would be a list of translators or maybe even a dedicated role (like Expert, etc.) who may be contacted for translations.


    This could help make LOTUS more international, resulting in a bigger community and therefore more content.

  • To collaborate more on that idea. I sadly don't remember which forum it was, but I stumbled upon a forum where if people, whom you described (who don't feel good in posting in English because they are afraid their English is not good enough), posted their posts in german, people answering them posted their responses in English (in case of shorter responses even in both languages), giving other people an idea what the topic is about and giving everybody ability to jump into the discussion. If you have only few posts in the thread in German, it's no biggies to google translate them also. Moderators even also translated the thread titles into English if they were originally posted in German etc.

    And let's be honest, anybody playing games this day and age, understands English.

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    Edited 2 times, last by GameBurrow: Fixed typos ().

  • Hi, GameBurrow

    I do not want to disappoint you, but English as spoken language is not common in Germany. Everybody learns it at school, but for most people that is it. For me, as a German native speaker, it was a sort of a cultural shock when I moved to Norway and discovered that every single Norwegian speaks perfect english and is not shy to use it - quite the opposite of what I experienced in Germany.

    This only makes it even more important to establish a bilingual approach in forums like the LOTUS forum. Great initiative you launched here!

  • I do not want to disappoint you, but English as spoken language is not common in Germany. Everybody learns it at school, but for most people that is it.

    That's pretty much how the most of world works (except countries that speak English natively or by nature are extremely multilingual). It's same here in Estonia, it's same in Norway. Germany ain't special in this regards at all. The point is - usually if you do gaming or deal with computers at all you do understand English and can write in it even at least on some level. Sure, it may not be perfect but it's more understandable for most, than writing your entire text in German.

    It was a sort of a cultural shock when I moved to Norway and discovered that every single Norwegian speaks perfect english and is not shy to use it.

    Oh that ain't correct at all :D I Work for a Norwegian company, my experience is quite opposite so far :D

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    Edited once, last by GameBurrow ().

  • Then we have very different experience. Since I live in Norway since 14 years I expect I can trust my experience.


    English is generally more common in small countries (by population), where much of media production is imported and not dubbed or translated. That applies to the Baltic states and also to Norway. German is spoken in the european DACH region (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and in some parts of surrounding countries. That is between 150 and 200 million people. This is, with all respect, a different league. Most of media is available in german language, most germans never have to practice their english skills. You actually claim this yourself: The LOTUS forum works perfect for german native speakers. It locks out others but it works. A forum in Estonian or Norwegian language would not work at all.


    We can continue to discuss our experience by means of personal messages if you want, but this thread should focus on your original proposal, which we agree upon to be positive. Let's not highjack this thread.

  • In my opinion you are pushing this a bit too hard.

    Even if this may sound rude (but is not supposed to) I don‘t care how important the influence and role of english in estonia or norway is.


    Your impression (that everyone speaks english) is very subjective, and also wrong!

    Smaller countries like Estonia are limited in their own possibilities and therefore rely on others. They are dependent on others that much, that the own language does not always make sense here. Because again, they are also too small to be always considered internationally.


    Estonia have a population of around 1.2 Million People. Even if you count the finish-spoken countries in, it will be a minority.


    On the Other hand, German is spoken in Germany, Austria, and huge parts of Switzerland 66%).

    In Summary, there are 97.6 Million People who are native German speaker.


    So, because german is very common. people never got in need to rely on a other language, because books, articles, products and whatsoever where always produced in the german language too. in the past, english was not teached in schools - people over the age of 45 often have very little to none english experience!


    Have you ever been in countries like Spain, and tried to communicate in english there? you are lost! Even in a metropolis like barcelona, you are not able to speak to a cab driver at the international airport! They are

    proud of their language, and simply not in the need to use other languages for whatsoever reasons, like explained before, there is a huge variety of spanish tv productions, products and on and on, or at least the product got translated to spanish - so it the same as with german, only with the fact that we absolutely have no chance to unterstand everything that’s in spanish, and vice versa.


    That’s all regarding to popularity. The other important role here, is the Market.

    Especially germans are highly addicted to the simulator genre, like Train/Bus/Truck/flight simulation. Language does not count here - it’s just about what people like, and what people buy. And here, this country is an important factor. The UK are into it as well. That’s also why you have some Big Vendors like Aerosoft, or all the relevant Game Studios in the genre in the german or uk area. Here, the People are interested in that stuff! even the big webshops like simmarket (if you are into flightsim) are german.


    Combine these two keyfactors, the popularity of the Language, and the interest in the Market, and you will see why it’s a big factor to speak german, or why on the other hand it is not a factor (for the majority) to speak english.


    As i said before, your impression of the importance to use an international language is not correct.


    But, you will always get help here (in english), if you create a topic or reply to one. Also the official content (which also is very incomplete in german due to the fact that it’s still in its creation) is available in english. But please do not force people to only communicate in english. For a lot of users, this is simply not possible, and they would not participate in this. It’s not a practical way, nor the right solution. I think i made clear why.


    Marvin

  • EDIT

    Deleted this post as I failed to get my idea properly across (misuse of several terms and problably being on too defensive), causing more issues than a discussion.

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    Edited 9 times, last by GameBurrow ().